05 June 2011

Brief Comparison of Two Civil Rights Leaders

Name: Martin Luther King Jr.
Goal: Equal rights and integration for African Americans & all races.
Methodology: Strictly peaceful.
Religious views: Christian minister.

Name: Malcolm Little (a.k.a. Malcolm X, El-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz).
Goal: Black superiority and separatism.
Methodology: "By whatever means necessary."
Religious views: Nation of Islam, Sunni Islam.

29 May 2011

Debate with a cowardly, willfully ignorant, Holocaust-denying muslim.

I uploaded a screenshot of this conversation here:
But now it has grown much larger and is too unwieldy for screenshots. But I don't want anyone to miss out on this raving lunatic, so I'm posting it all here!

This is a classic example of a muslim who cannot lose an argument, because muslims are so brainwashed into believing that islam is perfect and the quran is perfect, that any logical criticism or counter-evidence is immediately rejected on this basis alone, without any thought, and regardless of how irrefutable and overwhelming it is. They're actually deluded enough to believe that the quran cannot be wrong about anything... because it says so right there in the quran. And of course we know that the quran was written by God and not muhammad... because it says so in the quran. And of course no one is allowed to question this rather flimsy unprovable story... because it says so in the quran.


Just so that nobody thinks I'm faking this, the thread can be found here:
Note: Because of youtube's non-nested positioning of replies, the comments appear out-of-order anytime I needed more than one comment to respond. This note restores it to it's proper order.

The first two comments are from other people, and everything that follows is just the two of us:

I was Muslim and left it after reading how evil Mohammed was and how great the lord Jesus christ was and he loved us, Mohammed raped and killed us. follow Mohammed is like believing in the devil and loving him, what man marrys a 6 year old when in his 50s ? and marrys son's wife ? because he lusted over her, and then he pretends God said it was fine be proud to marry your sons wife, Mohammed was sick and evil, please stop followin the evil man, and follow true God.

@Albanianwarrior23 after viewing that video if ur eyes still closs n ur heart still black then all i can say i m feeling sorry about u u r really poor person in whole planet now u be ready to go to hell with all of ur evil thinking u r nothing but blind

From this point, my comments are in plain text, like this.
Sufianbabri's comments are in quoted text, like this.
Best lines in bold, like this.
[And any commentary is in yellow italics, like this.]

@SALEEMCLPK Is it "evil thinking" to denounce a hate-mongering slave-trading child-raping mass-murdering warlord? Does he have a "black heart" for speaking out against an obvious fraud that claimed to talk to God but had no witnesses and clearly made everything up for his own benefit?
I see you're from Pakistan, the #1 country in google searches for bestiality, child porn, and rape porn. The government wants to hang an innocent women for insulting your evil prophet. And you call others evil?
[No response, until his fellow Pakistani chimes in...]

@ISLAMizCANCER and you people can't hear anybody denying Holocaust. lol


Just check Holocaust in dictionary and you will know. It's pretty pathetic that you people don't allow anyone to deny Holocaust while we Muslims allow anyone to reject Islam (not accepting it as a faith).
[Huh. So the dictionary is my best source on Holocaust denial. Good to know.]

1) You're a liar, because the penalty for apostasy in islam is death. And non-muslims in Pakistan are routinely harassed and abused.
2) Comparing denial of a historical event to rejection of a religion is asinine. They are completely unrelated categorically, and therefore such a comparison is fallacious. [Take note of this point. He'll try the same exact thing at least three more times.]
3) Denying the Holocaust is like denying the existance of gravity. It's simple truth, observable and demonstrable. But then, muslims are gullible enough to believe anything.

if you are willing to change your opinion, I am too eager to continue the argument, and if you don't then well it will be no use.

That doesn't make sense. If I changed my opinion, then that would mean that I agree with you and there would be no need for further argument.
And which of my three statements was opinion? The first is observable fact, the second is logical fact, and the third is historical fact. None are opinions.

no, that would mean that you are willing to accept what the truth is. The moment somebody believes he's absolutely correct about everything, it's the time he's very wrong.
[Epic irony...]

Funny you should say that, seeing as how muslims believe that they are absolutely correct about everything. The truth that YOU are not willing to accept is that you follow the teachings of an evil man who was a complete fraud, and that looking at the quran from a critical viewpoint will lead you to this inevitable conclusion.
I don't claim to be "absolutely correct about everything", but I'm correct that muslims are brainwashed from birth, and that the Holocaust is historical fact.

well u r going to wrong sources then. [Naturally.]
Quran describes the modern embryology in deep detail. [Epic non-sequitur.] You may be interested in watching these 2 videos:
As for Holocaust, you can not question it. Why? Bcoz it's a historical fact? But also you can see Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) and Jesus (peace be upon him) existed but their followers are not intolerant like these ppl who believe in Holocaust.
[Wait... I'm pretty sure he just said that ALL muslims and ALL Christians are tolerant, and also that ALL Holocaust "believers" are intolerant. This is despite the fact that 99.99% of Christians accept the Holocaust, and even a significant percentage of muslims accept it. Logic at its finest, folks.]

De-bunking the absurd myths that the unholy quran is scientifically accurate (can't post actual links)
"Qur'an and Science" on answering-islam
"Embryology in the Qur'an" on wikiislam
"Georgics" also on wikiislam
Yes, because it's historical fact. Your comments about muhammad (may piss & shit be upon him) and Jesus don't relate at all to the Holocaust, so no idea what you're driving at. Complete non-sequitur.

since you say you don't claim to be absolutely right about everything, I tell you that you are reading the wrong sources. Do you think a staunch critic of Mercedes car will say good things about Mercedes? To any sane person it's a no, so why do you believe them?
[Translation: any criticism of islam is automatically a lie and should immediately be dismissed as such.]
You said denying Holocaust is foolish but why do you fine everyone who speaks stupid things? No. You can ridicule Prophets and God and any faith but can't deny Holocaust. This is called double standards. [LOL WUT]

Typical muslim argument. If I refute your claim, then I must be using the wrong source. Did you check any of those sources? They are extremely well-sourced themselves, and you can email the authors if you think they're wrong.
As I stated several comments ago: "Comparing denial of a historical event to rejection of a religion is asinine. They are completely unrelated categorically, and therefore such a comparison is fallacious."
So no, not double standards whatsoever.

then no doubt you would believe whatever a staunch critic of Mercedes car says.
[Yeah, or I'd use multiple sources, which muslims do not.]
They all are either quoting verses out of context or r interpreting the wrong way.
 [Even though they refute statements from muslims, not the verses themselves.]
Just search for answers by "Dr Zakir Naik" &I hope you will understand what Islam actually says.
Do u then fine somebody who denies a scientific fact? No. Why then so cruel laws for Holocaust denial or just questioning it? & if Holocaust is true then why do u not allow people to recheck just for their own peace of mind?
[Check all you like! Would you like to start with the countless eyewitness testimonies, or the countless photographs? Was EVERY soldier who liberated a camp forced to lie? And none of them spilled the beans in all these years?]

I use a mix of pro-islam sources, neutral sources, and anti-islam sources. Can you say the same? Be informed from ALL angles.
You still have not checked my sources. You goofed, because you're supposed to use the standard "context and interpretation" response for violent verses. We're talking about refuting claims of a scientifically accurate quran. No context or interpretation here. They provide statements from muslims, and then refute them. Look at them before responding.

If muslims had access to all of this perfect science for 1400 years, why did they never develop it? How come advances technology, medicine, science, etc. come from non-muslim countries who don't have the benefit of the "scientifically accurate" quran? Must be laziness or incompetence.
[No muslim can answer this, although some try. This guy doesn't even try. My challenge is ignored.]
I am familiar with Zakir Naik. He has some decent arguments in favor of the existance of God, but not islam specifically.He is vile for stating that apostates who criticize islam should be executed.

Holocaust denial is illegal in some countries, yes. That's because it's essentially perjury, which is illegal everywhere.
It's hypocritical for you to complain about that, because your country does far worse. There is currently a non-muslim woman awaiting execution for supposedly insulting your evil prophet, there are riots when someone isfalsely accused of ripping a quran, and so much more. Pakistan harasses non-muslims worse than most islamic countries.

if you don't wish to listen to the correct views (those of scholars of comparative religion) then that's just closing ur eyes to avoid looking at the truth.
[That's right, ONLY scholars of comparative religion are capable of judging the scientific accuracy of the quran. Not scientists or doctors.]
Dr Zakir Naik doesn't simply say what is right but also discusses what critics of Islam say and he then proves them wrong (obviously for those who are not cocky).
[Which is called a straw man argument. More on that later.]
This is just 1 answer from him in which he shows that Quran doesn't say "kill a non-Muslim wherever you find".
[Wow, that verse came out of nowhere!]

Wrong again. There are no "correct views", only varying degrees of plausibility and credibility.
The sources that I provided ARE from scholars of comparative religions (and scientists), but YOU only want to listen to MUSLIM scholars of comparative religions, who are very clearly biased. So my friend, in refusing to look at my sources, YOU are closing your eyes to avoid looking at the truth, not I.
For the quran and science, you need to listen to religious scholars AND scientists.

dear [Dear? LOL.] I have read some of their views [yeah right] and I am not a scholar but I still know for sure that they are misinterpreting. And telling them about their wrong views?
"Deaf, the dumb the blind. They return not to the right path." (2:18)
[That's right, anyone who doesn't believe in islam is deaf, dumb, and blind. Which is why all of the greatest minds in history were muslim.]
Sadly you haven't watched the video I linked, which brings me to conclusion that you do not want to open ur eyes. I would really like if you just give it a go.
[Sure thing. If I ever receive severe brain trauma, then I just might be stupid enough to believe in islam's heaping piles of bullshit.]

"I am not a scholar but I still know for sure that they are misinterpreting". I've heard this logic before: anyone who disagrees with islam is *automatically* wrong. In this case, you are willfully blind. You say that I would no doubt believe whatever the staunch critic of the Mercedes says? I say that you would no doubt believe whatever the *salesman* of the Mercedes says. Naik is the salesman.
It would appear that we are at an impasse, and have nothing further to discuss.

lol. I read Quran and I ponder over it and therefore I know that they are wrong. For example they say that Islam says "wherever you find a kaafir (non-Muslim) you kill them". But if you read the context, it is when it is in the battlefield when the pagans are to attack Muslims in the Battle of Badr.
[And again with this verse out of nowhere!]
It's obvious that you only read those views and don't read the Quran urself. Who's wrong? Not me surely.
[The daily dose of self-assurance?]

Why do you keep changing the subject? We were talking about science in the quran, and twice you brought up this verse about killing kuffar. I never said anything about it, so you're arguing with me about something that you imagined that I said. [Straw man.]
You refuse to read my sources that disprove the absurd myth that the quran is scientifically accurate, and this is because you are afraid that your faith will be weakened when you realize that these scholars make a stronger case than Naik.

ur so-called "scholars" have quoted that verse, [You mean the ones you refused to check?] I've read some other webs as well but frankly speaking, critics are there for every good thing, let it be religion, brand of cars, TVs and so on.
For me, if these so-called "scholars" (maybe scholars for Montessori children) can't interpret clear things correctly (i.e not reading previous and following verses) then do you think I would believe them for stupid things they say [scientifically factual "stupid" things they say] when talking about scientific errors in Quran? lol. [Cowardly excuse to not go and read it.]

[Muslim logic: If someone criticizing islam makes even the tiniest error, such as this evil & violent verse being slightly less evil & violent than it looks, then that person is automatically wrong about everything else they say, ever. Meanwhile, Zakir Naik can be wrong A LOT, but that's ok. http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Rising_Star_of_Incompetent_Muslim_Science Seriously, the man talks out of his ass.]

Because when it comes to the debate about the quran and science, these people are not trying to disprove the actual verses, they are just disproving the claims that the verses are scientifically accurate. Their scientific credentials have nothing to do with misinterpreting other verses. You're just using that as an excuse to dismiss them without reading, because you are clearly afraid of truth. (No, islam is not truth.)
BTW, you ever going to respond to my comments below this one?
[Note: I'm referring to the comments that start with "If muslims had access to all of this perfect science for 1400 years..." and "Holocaust denial is illegal in some countries..." Because he only responded to the first of three comments, the other two got buried at the bottom by youtube.]

there was a Christian missionary named Dr. William Campbell who boasted quite a number of contradictions in Quran and with the grace of God, Dr. Zakir Naik proved all of those claims wrong and after that Mr. Campbell has become an unknown. Also he then pointed out several contradictions in Bible which Campbell wasn't able to answer. But hey wait, don't check that video, u will become faithless. lol
[One guy that I've never heard of lost a debate? OH NOES!!!]

Typical, you assume that I must be Christian just because I oppose islam.
Once again, you ignore what I say, and change the subject. This is childish. Unless you ever plan to address my comments below (Why did the West develop more science if muslims had access to it first? Do you agree with Zakir that apostates who criticize islam should be killed? And do you not find it hypocritical to complain about Holocaust denial laws when Pakistan has far worse?) then I think we're done here.

Yes please bring the so-called scientific contradictions/errors in Quran and we can see.
[I did that WAY back, dude.]
Unfortunately you have not read this page:
[Yes I have. It's plagued with dubious & unsourced statements, and a great many outright lies that are exposed on the talk page.]
Did he say that criticising Islam has a death penalty? [Many times.] Share the video please. [Why? You won't look at them anyway!]
Pakistan is not an Islamic state. In fact there is not a single 100% Islamic state in today's world.

As for your first request, I already provided those. You refused to look at them. Remember?
Yes, I have read the wikipedia page you're linking to, but thanks for making more assumptions. The "facts" on that page are added by muslims who don't follow the wikipedia process, don't give proper sources, and have been refuted by countless experts. See the "misused sources" and "citations needed" tags at the top of the page? See the discussion page? The article is pure propaganda.

Yes, Zakir Naik says that any ex-muslims who criticize islam should be killed. He claims that it's the same as treason against a government, which is an utterly absurd comparison. Just search youtube for "zakir naik apostasy" and the first three videos show him saying this. Disgusting man.
Pakistan masquerades as a democracy, but it might as well be an islamic state. It's 97% muslim, called the "Islamic Republic of Pakistan", and kills people who insult the evil prophet.

u r too afraid to check Dr Zakir's reply to Dr. Campbell's fake errors in Quran (& these authors have the same stupid works)?
The misused sources hav already been removed by Wikipedia. If you don't believe then just GOOGLE "Jabar bin Hayan", "Khwarizmi". Who coined zero; who started trigonometry;who is father of Chemistry? [Not muslims.]

You claim Islam teaches intolerance but again &again yet u fail to see bcoz of ur blindness that we Muslims never show disrespect to other religion's prophets. [Except for all the non-Abrahamic religions.] Pretty ignorant side of urs.
It's like saying Mr.Brown has a brown skin. [LOL WUT] We believe (like Christians) that our Prophet existed but u can say u don't believe in him and we don't fine u [no, you just kill people rather than fining them] but u are so intolerant that u can't ever hear "Holocaust never happened"! How intolerant!
[Back to the Holocaust again, huh? I was wondering when we'd get around to that. I've already explained twice that this comparison is 100% fallacious.]
How about coming to a website like twcentre.net?

It's hilarious that you tell me that I am "too afraid" to see your links, when I've seen MOST of your links and you've refused to see ANY of mine! LOL, hyopcrite.
And again, you're using arguments that are disproved in the links that I provided (at your request) which you refused to look at. This is futile, it's like arguing with a child.
See "Islamic Inventions? How Islamic Inventors Did Not Change The World" coward. Zero, trig, and chemistry came MANY centuries before islam.

Just because you "never show disrespect to other religion's prophets" does NOT make islam tolerant. You have the death penalty for people who make cartoons of muhammad! You want everyone to live under sharia and dhimmitude! What's more intolerant than that? That is WAY worse than laws against Holocaust denial (perjury) that you keep bitching about.
I never said that I don't believe your prophet existed. He was real, but not a prophet. He was the most evil man to walk this earth.

child is you, respected Sir. Dr William Campbell didn't tell jokes if u know. Firstly, all the so-called "scholars" who right about errors in Quran have the same material which Dr. Zakir answered. Secondly, I won't go to those stupid website, if u want an answer just post the errors they have found.
No it's u who's "too afraid", [Nuh-uh! I kno u r but wut am I??] had u read/watched what Dr. Zakir said, u would have no other reason than "Quran is wrong bcoz I say so".
[Quran is wrong 'bcoz' of overwhelming scientific and historical evidence, not to mention basic elementary logic.]

okay what does the Bible say about blasphemy?
"And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him" (Book of Leviticus 24:16)
It's complete ignorance that u target Islam & forget other religions. Again, u read the wrong sources but never admit.
Islam is intolerant towards dishonesty, injustice and every evil thing u find in today's World. No doubt all anti-social elements find Islam intolerant. [Someone get this guy a dictionary so that he can look up "anti-social", and some common sense so he'll realize that islam is the most socially conservative culture on earth.]

u can see that it's my 3rd reply to ur 2 comments. It would have been easier for both of us if we were discussing this at a forum.Anyway.
"answering-christianity(.)com" was created in response to ur beloved "answering-islam(.)org". [Beloved because I linked to it once?] The person on AnsweringChristianity has answered to each and every "supposed" error in Quran. u may like to check about the shape of the Earth [a rebuttal to the article written at answering-islam(.)org].
[In case anyone is unfamiliar with answering-christianity.com, it's actually much more about defending islam than criticizing Christianity. It's another hilarious example that muslims view ALL Westerners as Christians.]

<sigh> You get more and more tedious. I'll tell you one more time: I have seen MANY videos of Zakir Naik, so it makes no sense to keep saying I'm "too afraid" to watch him, and it's clearly a defense mechanism you're using, (reaction formation).
[Reaction formation: being self-conscious about something, and over-compensating by accusing someone else of the very thing that you are guilty of. In this case, automatically rejecting evidence without looking at it, due to fear.]
You say "I won't go to those stupid website" because you're a childish coward. You want me to post it all here, in comments with 500 characters max? I can send you a PM with the entire article [which would be a waste of time] but it's probably easier to just go read it.

Do you know what a strawman argument is? It's when you pretend that your opponent holds a certain view, and then you attack that view, even though he doesn't actually hold it.
[Muslims do it A LOT.]
For example, you keep talking about William Campbell. I haven't mentioned him and I don't care about him. Another example: you keep assuming that I'm Christian. Muslims love to do that. You have no idea what my religion is, or if I even have one.
You are a master of logical fallacies.

Yes, the Old Testament says some violent things. But today, no Christians or Jews still follow those violent verses. Nobody is trying to force those laws on the world.
Meanwhile, muslims follow quranic violence every day, and even the peaceful muslims want to see sharia on the whole world. Sick, obsolete, barbaric religion.
Intolerant towards dishonesty? Liar. You use taqiyya.
Intoelrant towards injustice and every evil thing? That's because you think FREEDOM is unjust and evil.

[This will likely be updated as he keeps responding, unless it's just more of the same tedious crap, in which case I'll simply wash my hands of him.]

(Note: This is also available as a facebook note, but it's easier to read here. www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=118201394932441)